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huhkerrf 4 hours ago [-]
Maybe it's because I never had my On the Road phase, but this review on Kerouac I always found really strong:
> On the Road is a terrible book about terrible people. Jack Kerouac and his terrible friends drive across the US about seven zillion times for no particular reason, getting in car accidents and stealing stuff and screwing women whom they promise to marry and then don’t.
> Jack Kerouac’s relationship with Dean can best be described as “enabler”. He rarely commits any great misdeeds himself. He’s just along for the ride [usually literally, generally in flagrant contravention of all applicable traffic laws] with Dean, watching him destroy people’s lives, doing nothing about it, and then going into rhapsodies about how free-spirited and unencumbered and holy and mad and visionary it all is.
I'm curious, do the people who love the book generally believe that the characters in the story are admirable? I remember a certain sick feeling, the same you get with any story that pulls you along to places you aren't sure you want to go. But at the same time I could relate to the "anything but this" spirit it held toward the culture at the time. I appreciated the mood and the restlessness of it, like watching the sunrise after a regrettable night out.
It has been a long time since I read it and now I feel like I should revisit it to see if that still holds.
kylecazar 1 hours ago [-]
I did have a Kerouac phase (in college, read all his work and many of the other beats) but came to the same conclusion as this reviewer a few years later. It actually really hits the nail on the head.
Also -- I liked them because I was 19. It was a phase reflective of a moment in time for me. That didn't last, so neither did the idolization of that way of life. I started seeing it as sad, especially when you learn how most of their lives ended.
pjc50 2 hours ago [-]
And in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, they don't even manage to do any motorcycle maintenance!
(I think people have misunderstood the appeal of the book, probably because the psychological conditions of the mid-20th century are unrecognizable. It is significant that the book is from 1957, a whole decade before Easy Rider and the general transition period centered on 1968)
everdrive 1 hours ago [-]
For someone who has read neither, could you expand on this? What makes this book significant from a 1950s-1960s perspective? Is it worth reading today for its own merit outside the historical relevance?
tclancy 57 minutes ago [-]
They most certainly do motorcycle maintenance! I remember asking my dad what the hell points used to be on engines. The first few chapters contain a lot of talk about motorcycle maintenance. You’re not going to learn to change out a carb or anything but it’s there.
jhpankow 46 minutes ago [-]
"Oh yeah. Tappets."
tclancy 7 minutes ago [-]
That was the other one. I was very happy with “points” because I finally got the double entendre in Bob Seger’s Night Moves. Until then I only knew the entendre part!
breezybottom 34 minutes ago [-]
Years don't have psychological conditions, people do.
tclancy 31 minutes ago [-]
This New Yorker piece inspired me to finally pick up On the Road last night. I don think it’s a terrible book, but I would say the jury’s out on the people. I’m eighty or so pages in and waiting for the magic to happen. If it’s more of a tone poem, I’ll wind up tapping out because those books and movies are never my jam.
Could be I just like On the Road: The Musical, book by Craig Finn, music by The Hold Steady.
> generally in flagrant contravention of all applicable traffic laws
Being up front, I cannot stand this author in the first place. The idea there were any applicable traffic laws in the Great Inbetween in 1950s America is stupid.
keiferski 3 hours ago [-]
It must be so exhausting to go through life only enjoying things that match one’s up-to-the-minute current moral views. I guess all biographies of influential people are basically out, as being successful in 1000BC or 1500AD required one to do things considered unethical today.
It feels a bit like religious fundamentalism with a different veneer.
arjie 2 hours ago [-]
Scott Alexander is a smart guy, but not everything needs to match taste. For instance, he describes the writer of the book Sadly, Porn as remarkably erudite and so on. The community he belongs to has the habit of describing each other as very smart, certainly, and particularly having pretensions to Hegel but overall he's quite trustworthy. In any case, on actually reading the book I found it less interestingly smart and more like something the character Salvatore in The Name of The Rose might say.
But text is a serialization of an idea and it's entirely possible I have the wrong deserializer. So that's one thing perhaps you and I now have in common. And I suspect Scott Alexander just lacks the deserializer for Jack Kerouac.
saagarjha 3 hours ago [-]
Ok but you do realize that he was alive in the 1900s, not 1000 BC.
keiferski 3 hours ago [-]
The moral views of the average person circa 1930 are very different from one today.
But I read old books for their interesting stories, viewpoints on life, literary quality, etc. – not to tut-tut someone for having different moral views than me, a hundred years later.
So it doesn't bother me. Like I said, I really cannot understand the mindset of someone that reads a book from another era/civilization and focuses on critiquing the author's ethics. Just feels like such a limited way to interact with the world.
breezybottom 32 minutes ago [-]
I don't see it. The 1930s weren't that long ago, there are still people alive who lived through them. If you were talking about ancient Egypt, you might have a point.
keiferski 21 minutes ago [-]
The 1930s had radically different opinions on race, gender, religion, and a host of other things as compared to today.
saagarjha 1 hours ago [-]
Please point to the things being described in that comment and explain what the average person in 1930 would have felt about them.
Jtarii 3 hours ago [-]
Maybe try reading the review first before criticising it.
keiferski 3 hours ago [-]
I have, awhile ago. There isn’t much more to it than the quoted section.
It’s not really surprising to me that the author didn’t like it; Kerouac is probably the exact opposite person to him. But that doesn’t make it a good review.
2 hours ago [-]
jodrellblank 3 hours ago [-]
> up-to-the-minute current moral views
“You shall not steal” is the eighth commandment from the Bible, two thousand years ago.
keiferski 3 hours ago [-]
So you don't read or enjoy any books about people that have broken any commandments?
jstanley 2 hours ago [-]
You can enjoy a book while still noting that the characters in it are not doing good things.
mc32 1 hours ago [-]
It’s true we should not judge people by today’s morals -one can’t be a visionary and predict tomorrows morals; but, that said it seems those people strayed well beyond what was acceptable even back then. So there is room for criticism.
huhkerrf 3 hours ago [-]
You're jumping to some wild conclusions there. This isn't about wokism (if you know the author, that would be clear) or political correctness.
It's more: wow these guys are jerks, and they get on my nerves.
A protagonist doesn't need to be perfect. But, ultimately, you should be rooting for him.
keiferski 3 hours ago [-]
I wasn't making it about wokism at all.
And I don't agree that you should be rooting for protagonist. That's an extremely limited way of looking at literature, much less history. I can think of half a dozen books offhand that have unpleasant or anti-hero type protagonists.
huhkerrf 2 hours ago [-]
Fair enough, I withdraw the "rooting for" comment. More accurate to say that you shouldn't be actively annoyed at the protagonist.
ChrisMarshallNY 1 hours ago [-]
> I can think of half a dozen books offhand that have unpleasant or anti-hero type protagonists.
I was not a fan of Thomas Covenant. What a prick.
keiferski 1 hours ago [-]
I just finished American Tabloid and I don’t think there was a single honorable character in the whole novel. Not one, out of dozens.
tclancy 34 minutes ago [-]
That’s interesting. I was a huge Ellroy fan and I think that’s probably my favorite book. I always got the impression in his books the idea was the protagonists were heroes or, more accurately, could have been if there was any place for them in the Ellroy universe. Instead, they do sordid stuff because there really isn’t another way in the rigged game they live in. To feel like they have agency, they try to find a third way between the options of “good” and “evil” but usually wind up doomed, so who can say if they have agency at all. Except for Dudley, who is definitely not a hero in anyone’s universe. Though even he is a bit of a nod to the trope of heroic Irish cop who gets things done in spite of the system.
I don’t know if it’s him or me, but the last book gave me the feeling Ellroy has fully embraced the man-o-sphere. I can hardly judge him, given the story of his upbringing, but I think I am going to catch the next stop on his bus line.
keiferski 15 minutes ago [-]
I haven't read any of his other books, but Tabloid definitely didn't have that feeling you mentioned. It's more of a pervasive matter-of-fact "everyone is corrupt" vibe, even people like JFK, the FBI, cops, etc.
tclancy 8 minutes ago [-]
I should revisit it, but we came at it from different places (and good Lord I read it over a quarter century ago). There are some threads from previous Ellroy books (Pete Bondurant himself) and, assuming I recall any of this correctly after all this time, I feel like the Kemper Boyd character is the same basic Guy as Ed Exley from LA Confidential and the protagonist of White Jazz. Or maybe The Black Dahlia. But obviously it’s not all black and white, right?
ChrisMarshallNY 55 minutes ago [-]
In A Song of Fire and Ice (the series that spawned Game of Thrones, and has yet to be completed), you get to really hating on a character, then, their story gets told from their side (usually, before they are killed), and you find that maybe you don't hate them so much.
cassepipe 4 hours ago [-]
I have had my on the road phase when I was around 18 when I read the book but I did not vibe at all with it. I found all the characters highly unlikeable and couldn't help to think that I much better friends, even my wildest ones. But I wasn't wild enough I guess because I actually managed to finish the book, like a well behaved schoolboy.
bsenftner 44 minutes ago [-]
Around the same time I first read On The Road, my wiser than should be possible mother said "Oh, you need to read this too" and it was "Off the Road: Twenty Years with Cassady, Kerouac and Ginsberg", written by Carolyn Cassady. Rips the band aid right off of those sexist abuser of innocents, those utter assholes. They write great literature, and the fact that they expose their own terrible ethics bare, but surrounded by non-condemning language is the trick. They never hid their nature, but America never realized what they were praising, not really. Which is all so American!
delichon 4 minutes ago [-]
That reminds me of the Seinfeld show and their own judgement of their characters in the last episode.
jgalt212 22 minutes ago [-]
> screwing women whom they promise to marry and then don’t.
It really is unfortunate that man's sex drive is above and beyond the level he can achieve without subterfuge (at best) and violence (at worst).
delichon 8 minutes ago [-]
Worse, those ugly things may have contributed to the survival of our species, and their retreat may be part of why fertility is bellow replacement. It turns out that Walt Disney didn't design reality and who ever did had a very different aesthetic.
thelarrys 2 hours ago [-]
The deep pockmarks in Scott Alexander's hands
left from so strongly clutching his pearls
will take an eternity to de-dimple.
cassepipe 27 minutes ago [-]
TIL I learned that not liking a-holes and to find the story their repititive adventures boring is pearl-clutching
torben-friis 3 hours ago [-]
I wonder why Keruoac-like personalities are so magnetic, I never felt it click.
Maybe it's that people wish they would dare share that freedom? Escapism from boredom?
The lifestyle does not at all feel pleasant, at least to me. I don't mean it in the sense of regular comfort; these lines describe a tortured man more than they do a 'happy beggar'.
And then there's the chaos the trainwreck leaves behind. I don't believe a man that's truly passionate would have so little empathy for others. If anything, it feels egotistical and self infatuated.
ikr678 2 hours ago [-]
I find the magnetism from these types of people is seeing someone violate your social norms (usually for gain) in ways you had never considered, and getting a tantalising glimpse of what might be possible if only you weren't so timid/proper/responsible/considerate/whatever.
Yeah, this led me to the author’s other pieces in The New Yorker this weekend. I generally dislike short stories but really liked both of those. Both her fiction and non-fiction prose style appeal to me. I think there’s a leanness to it while still conveying what you need to know that I love.
ktallett 4 hours ago [-]
Jack Kerouac has always felt like a gateway for early 20 year old guys looking to be seen as literary explorers. Similar to how Orwell seems to be commonly found around your mid teens (15-17) and many are seem reading 1984. I guess it's almost a right of passage.
I know many will say those are stereotypes or tropes but having worked with people from 15-28 over the course of many years in a range of roles, it's very much an observation at this point. Orwell especially I suspect comes from required reading.
iammjm 4 hours ago [-]
Orwell is an absolute master of both fiction and non-fiction. This dude lived and got dirty on purpose just to be able to report about it: far-away colonies, lower-class slums, foreign wars against fascists; in the end it even cost him his life.
I am SO happy he is an obligatory lecture in many schools and countries; it's probably the best thing kids could be reading. He's been my hero ever since I've read him, and still is now even as I am approaching 40. And I've read many other good things too, but rarely something comes close to Orwell's dedication and authenticity. The man speaks universal truths in a way that sticks. If you only know 1984 and Animal Farm, do yourself a favor and check out The Road to Wigan Pier, for example.
bloak 2 hours ago [-]
Yes!
"Of the five pay-checks I mentioned above, no less than three are rubber-stamped with the words 'death stoppage'. When a miner is killed at work it is usual for the other miners to make up a subscription, generally of a shilling each, for his widow, and this is collected by the colliery company and automatically deducted from their wages. The significant detail here is the rubber stamp."
2 hours ago [-]
y-curious 4 hours ago [-]
OTR is also required reading in the US. I remember a lot of my peers being very inspired by living that sort of beat life, although none of them actualized on that
> On the Road is a terrible book about terrible people. Jack Kerouac and his terrible friends drive across the US about seven zillion times for no particular reason, getting in car accidents and stealing stuff and screwing women whom they promise to marry and then don’t.
> Jack Kerouac’s relationship with Dean can best be described as “enabler”. He rarely commits any great misdeeds himself. He’s just along for the ride [usually literally, generally in flagrant contravention of all applicable traffic laws] with Dean, watching him destroy people’s lives, doing nothing about it, and then going into rhapsodies about how free-spirited and unencumbered and holy and mad and visionary it all is.
https://readscottalexander.com/posts/ssc-book-review-on-the-...
It has been a long time since I read it and now I feel like I should revisit it to see if that still holds.
Also -- I liked them because I was 19. It was a phase reflective of a moment in time for me. That didn't last, so neither did the idolization of that way of life. I started seeing it as sad, especially when you learn how most of their lives ended.
(I think people have misunderstood the appeal of the book, probably because the psychological conditions of the mid-20th century are unrecognizable. It is significant that the book is from 1957, a whole decade before Easy Rider and the general transition period centered on 1968)
Could be I just like On the Road: The Musical, book by Craig Finn, music by The Hold Steady.
> generally in flagrant contravention of all applicable traffic laws
Being up front, I cannot stand this author in the first place. The idea there were any applicable traffic laws in the Great Inbetween in 1950s America is stupid.
It feels a bit like religious fundamentalism with a different veneer.
But text is a serialization of an idea and it's entirely possible I have the wrong deserializer. So that's one thing perhaps you and I now have in common. And I suspect Scott Alexander just lacks the deserializer for Jack Kerouac.
But I read old books for their interesting stories, viewpoints on life, literary quality, etc. – not to tut-tut someone for having different moral views than me, a hundred years later.
So it doesn't bother me. Like I said, I really cannot understand the mindset of someone that reads a book from another era/civilization and focuses on critiquing the author's ethics. Just feels like such a limited way to interact with the world.
It’s not really surprising to me that the author didn’t like it; Kerouac is probably the exact opposite person to him. But that doesn’t make it a good review.
“You shall not steal” is the eighth commandment from the Bible, two thousand years ago.
It's more: wow these guys are jerks, and they get on my nerves.
A protagonist doesn't need to be perfect. But, ultimately, you should be rooting for him.
And I don't agree that you should be rooting for protagonist. That's an extremely limited way of looking at literature, much less history. I can think of half a dozen books offhand that have unpleasant or anti-hero type protagonists.
I was not a fan of Thomas Covenant. What a prick.
I don’t know if it’s him or me, but the last book gave me the feeling Ellroy has fully embraced the man-o-sphere. I can hardly judge him, given the story of his upbringing, but I think I am going to catch the next stop on his bus line.
It really is unfortunate that man's sex drive is above and beyond the level he can achieve without subterfuge (at best) and violence (at worst).
left from so strongly clutching his pearls
will take an eternity to de-dimple.
Maybe it's that people wish they would dare share that freedom? Escapism from boredom?
The lifestyle does not at all feel pleasant, at least to me. I don't mean it in the sense of regular comfort; these lines describe a tortured man more than they do a 'happy beggar'.
And then there's the chaos the trainwreck leaves behind. I don't believe a man that's truly passionate would have so little empathy for others. If anything, it feels egotistical and self infatuated.
I know many will say those are stereotypes or tropes but having worked with people from 15-28 over the course of many years in a range of roles, it's very much an observation at this point. Orwell especially I suspect comes from required reading.
I am SO happy he is an obligatory lecture in many schools and countries; it's probably the best thing kids could be reading. He's been my hero ever since I've read him, and still is now even as I am approaching 40. And I've read many other good things too, but rarely something comes close to Orwell's dedication and authenticity. The man speaks universal truths in a way that sticks. If you only know 1984 and Animal Farm, do yourself a favor and check out The Road to Wigan Pier, for example.
"Of the five pay-checks I mentioned above, no less than three are rubber-stamped with the words 'death stoppage'. When a miner is killed at work it is usual for the other miners to make up a subscription, generally of a shilling each, for his widow, and this is collected by the colliery company and automatically deducted from their wages. The significant detail here is the rubber stamp."